• Thoughts on mandatory vaccination?
  • Thoughts on mandatory vaccination?

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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemekis View Post
    I took my wife to the doctor's office today and she went in for a physical exam. I was in the waiting room and when she came back out she told me that she got an injection of some sort...he English isn;t perfect and I think she just went along with it. Turns out it was a flu shot, but the idea of them pushing that on my wife when she couldn't really understand it (and they knew this) kind of pissed me off. I'm not an anti-vaxxer but vaccines NEED to be questioned. Even if they are effective, I worry that we are getting way too many of them. I'm not sure which are truly beneficial and which are pushed on us so doctors can make money. Perhaps they aren't very expensive for the patient, but the doctor's office gets to bill your Insurance company for a lot of money. It is in the best interest of doctors to push a procedure on you that costs them...maybe $5 per vaccine and 20 seconds of time when they can make $100 on it easily.

    By age 5 or so, American kids get like 20+ vaccines. Are all 20 or so NECESSARY or even relevant to diseases that exist in America? Vaccines are definitely a life-saving invention but is seems that they are being abused these days. I'm more concerned about antibiotics killing off all but super strong strains of diseases. It's not that people over-use antibiotics, but moreso that antibiotics are mixed into animal food. A lot of animals we eat for food must consume antibiotics every day just so they don't die because the remaining infection strains are so powerful at this point. It's scary stuff and it makes me wonder if our future is being traded away so a few people can moke money right now.
    This is exactly my worry. There are cases in America as well of mothers opting out of vaccinating newborns and nurses still doing it.

    The medical industry makes WAY too much money now, it would be silly not to question it. We have made such great advances and I know damn well there is stuff everyday folks like us aren't told, for better or for worse.

    Overmedicating, over-vaccinating, low-quality food, pollution in the air... Is it any wonder why American is one of the most unhealthy countries in the world? I know more people who have a disease/illness than those who don't. That is pretty damn scary.

    We have to factor in corrupt doctors as well. One that I went to for 15 years of my life ended up moving out of state and retiring because both she and her husband were ripping off insurance companies to get more money.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDood64 View Post
    No offense, but before you tell anyone to "pay attention", you should probably learn to communicate in English correctly. I can already tell this is going to be a tiring debate and you're far too emotionally invested to have a mature discussion so I bid you adieu.
    Taking a small part of my response to justify you leaving right when i'm asking to see the proof, the peer-reviewed studies you seemed so eager to show, is a bit suspicious. If i was not sure you were of perfectly good will, i'd say you're running away after lying/making a mistake you wouldn't admit.
    But that couldn't be that, of course.
    As for the "communicate in English correctly", i'll respond that not everyone is born English-speaking, that since you can respond it means you can read me, and that you on the contrary should show me my mistake so i can improve my english speaking abilities. You know, like, to "communicate in English correctly".
    Never overestimate mankind.

  3. #13
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    Does everyone feel the same way about animals? Mandatory vaccinations for dogs, for example?
    "Out of the ground, raze all greenery with flame! Fire2!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Starwind55 View Post
    It deals with a demon virus that transforms people into freaky looking fuckers

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemekis View Post
    Does everyone feel the same way about animals? Mandatory vaccinations for dogs, for example?
    If vaccines are harmful to humans, I can only imagine what kind of garbage they put into what they give pets. I think as long as you keep your pets them clean and well-fed, a transmitable disease is going to be the least likely thing to harm them. Come to think of it, I don't know if I've ever heard of a dog or cat dying of anything but old age, cancer, etc. I'm sure it happens, but I wouldn't choose to vaccinate my pet because of it.

  5. #15
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    If i had them i would for pretty much do it the same reasons as before : legal obligation, protecting other (pets here, because a lot of the vaccines i talked about earlier were mainly human diseases), protecting my own pet etc...
    However there are two major drawbacks for mandatory vaccination for pets imo :
    -First, pets' lives are not important (the protecting them part is mainly to spare their owners some sadness) compared to human ones.
    -Second, they're not reimbursed and cost a lot of money.
    But also one major point in favor : pets can still be spreading diseases to humans, just look at H1N1 case.

    That's why i won't take a pet, the cost it would have, not only vaccines but food and other things too.

    Oh, and Stardood, i see you're back. Can i have the proof you wanted to show please ? I'm curious.
    Also i've read a bit more and i've some studies talking about inefficiency in certain cases (like flu vaccine's efficiency decreasing for old people), but no danger-related ones. The inefficiency in such case is, might i add, another for the vaccination of those with whom it's efficient. It's called herd immunity.
    Never overestimate mankind.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1LVERST@R35 View Post
    Oh, and Stardood, i see you're back. Can i have the proof you wanted to show please ? I'm curious.
    Back from where? I never left. As I said before, I think you are just too emotionally-invested in this topic to have an objective discussion about it, so I had no intention of continuing to argue with you. With that said, since you've asked me twice now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that you are truly curious, open to changing your mind, and will actually read what I'm about to spend an hour typing. I will present to you the full details of personal beliefs on this subject, as well as factual information to support those beliefs. Beyond that, I have no interest in continuing with this discussion, because if what I'm about to say won't convince you to think differently, then any further debate would be fruitless. Now, prepare yourself for the wall of text you've invited!

    Before I provide you with research and data, let me explain myself fully: first of all, I don't have an issue with the fundamental idea of vaccines. Exposing ourselves to pathogens or toxins to gain resistance to them is something we've done for thousands of years in varying ways. The problem with vaccines is the execution. Not only have we not haven't studied vaccines enough to know their real effect on the human body, vaccines contain a number of different compounds which are harmful to us. As a result, vaccines are something which A) we don't completely understand, and B) can hurt us. Now ask yourself, if you don't understand something, and it can hurt you, why would you put it into your body? Well, as I see it, there are two answers: the first answer is that you disagree; you think we DO understand vaccines and that they DON'T hurt us. The second answer is that you agree with some of what I've said, but you also believe our understanding is great enough, and the negative effects of vaccines minimal enough, that their benefits outweigh their flaws.

    Let's begin by talking about vaccines and what we know about them. While we understand the basic mechanics of how vaccines work, what we don't fully understand are their long-term effects. The human body is the most advanced system in existence, and vaccinations have only existed for about 200 years. We have not had nearly enough time to study and fully comprehend everything there is to know about vaccines; the fact that vaccine technology continues to evolve is proof of this. There are too many variables that differ with each pathogen, host and method of administration for us to state, "putting this substance into your body is totally safe". We cannot say that. That's a problem.

    So we don't know everything about vaccines -- but do we know if they cause us harm? Well, here's the deal: vaccines are suspended in solutions which can contain fun little compounds like Thimerosal (a highly toxic chemical now banned in many countries), Squalene oil (which can cause flu-like symptoms and body pain), Formaldehyde (which I don't think I need to tell you, is quite harmful to humans), and a variety of common allergens, like egg and latex-derived substances. Now to be fair, in the case of some chemicals (such as Formaldehyde) the levels found within vaccines can be quite low. However, even if we assume that a single vaccination of any kind can't harm you because levels of harmful chemicals are too low, there's what is known as the "cumulative effect", wherein repeated exposure to a toxin can effectively "build up" and cause severe consequences over time. This is why doctors typically stagger vaccinations (particularly for infacts), as they are worried that injections scheduled too closely could be dangerous to the patient.

    Added ingredients are not the only issue with vaccines -- there's also the pathogenic component. Quite literally, getting a vaccine is exposing yourself to an inactive pathogen or isolated part of a pathogen. Even though these pathogens/pathogenic elements might usually be inert, there's the potential for some to remain active, or for the compounds they contain to end up in places that they shouldn't. In fact, some vaccines are actually "live" vaccines, such as the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) vaccine, meaning that when you get this injection, you are being injected with active MMR. Now imagine you have a weak immune system and the virus manages to not only live, but thrive? Now you're walking around spreading the disease to other people. I won't even get into the whole deal of how pathogens can cause cancer, how pathogens can pass through the blood-brain barrier and damage the brain, how toxins from within pathogens can becoming lodged within the body, the fact that vaccines don't treat every strain of a pathogen, etc. Needless to say, no matter what state a pathogen or its components are administered in, having them within your body is not safe.

    Okay, thus far we've established that 1) we do not know everything about vaccines, 2) vaccines contain toxic compounds, 3) vaccines CAN be dangerous (at the very least, if improperly/too frequently administered). With this in mind, let's discuss what harms vaccines can actually present. Let me state myself plainly: I believe that vaccines can cause pain and discomfort, physical illness, disease, genetic damage, cancer, mental/behavioral disorders, and death. This is what I believe because this is what personal experience and my research has afforded me. I may very well be wrong, but I can only trust what I've learned to be true, and this is what I've learned. Now, if you're still with me after this long-winded explanation of my rationale... I finally have, for you, the requested research that supports what I've said:

    List of common vaccine ingredients:
    Vaccine ingredients | Vaccine Knowledge

    Commonly documented side effects of vaccines:
    Vaccine Side Effects and Adverse Events | History of Vaccines

    Pros and cons of vaccines:
    Vaccines - Pros & Cons - ProCon.org

    A doctor discussing the link between vaccines, autism, and the necessity of most vaccines:
    National Vaccine Information Center - Julian Whitaker, MD

    Measles vaccinations potentially cause more deaths than measles itself:
    Fact check: Do deaths from vaccination outnumber deaths caused by measles? - Ballotpedia

    Possible links between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ADHD:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29413097

    Proof that vaccinations can spread disease:
    https://www.westonaprice.org/studies...pread-disease/

    Detection of measles in vaccine recipients 2 weeks after administration:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7494055

    Over 70 doses of 16 different vaccines by age 18:
    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedul...d-schedule.pdf

    The United States vaccinates more children than any other country, and spends more on healthcare than any other country, yet still has the sickest kids of any industrialized nation:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20180321...er-Health.aspx

    What I've provided you with here are scholarly facts and figures from reputable sources which indicate that vaccines have many negative effects. While the extent of these negative effects is somewhat debatable, there is no doubt that the effects exist and can be dangerous. I have to end this post shortly or I'll be at risk of putting any readers to sleep, but let me just say that I haven't even scratched the surface on the subjects of potential side effects, the difference in natural immunity vs. vaccinated immunity, the link between vaccines and spectrum disorders, and so on... but I digress.

    Vaccines are a largely unnecessary and poorly-implemented technology which have limited applicable uses in very dire and uncommon situations (e.g. a plague ravaging a 3rd world country with poor nutrition, poor sanitation and many immuno-compromised people), but they are not needed in most modern societies, and they absolutely cause harm to those who get them. The best prevention against disease is a good diet, clean living conditions, proper sanitation habits and common sense. Even when you try and dismiss the negative effects of vaccines as being uncommon or overblown, vaccines aren't even reasonable from a statistical standpoint; there just aren't enough risks to warrant their use, especially when vaccines can spread disease. You are more likely to get struck by lightning than die from one of the diseases that most vaccines were designed to prevent; just think about that.

    Forcibly injecting healthy individuals living in a first-world country with foreign substances is a scientically-unfounded practice, and in my opinion, morally wrong. That's all I have left to tell you.
    Last edited by StarDood64; 13th October 2019 at 02:44 PM.

  7. #17
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    I don't want to touch on this much considering this is already extremely volatile, but I will say this: the "study" done linking vaccines to autism has already been thoroughly debunked. So much so that the CDC redacted the study from every publication. It's wholly untrue. Not sure on most of the others, but the link between vaccines and autism is entirely untrue.


  8. #18
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    First, thank you for the reply and links, i appreciate it.
    Let's start.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDood64 View Post
    Well, as I see it, there are two answers: the first answer is that you disagree; you think we DO understand vaccines and that they DON'T hurt us. The second answer is that you agree with some of what I've said, but you also believe our understanding is great enough, and the negative effects of vaccines minimal enough, that their benefits outweigh their flaws.
    Second answer for me. Risks exist, absolute security and/or knowledge don't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDood64 View Post
    We have not had nearly enough time to study and fully comprehend everything there is to know about vaccines; the fact that vaccine technology continues to evolve is proof of this.
    True, we don't know everything and this technology is still young in our history. We don't know everything and still need to improve, but it's the case for any other field of knowledge/production.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDood64 View Post
    However, even if we assume that a single vaccination of any kind can't harm you because levels of harmful chemicals are too low, there's what is known as the "cumulative effect", wherein repeated exposure to a toxin can effectively "build up" and cause severe consequences over time. This is why doctors typically stagger vaccinations (particularly for infacts), as they are worried that injections scheduled too closely could be dangerous to the patient.
    Again, true. Too much of the chemicals you cited can be dangerous if too heavily administered and this is why we spread the shots.
    However, if this "cumulative effect" exists, it is not definitive. Those chemicals are not building up throughout our lives, they're being eliminated.
    Just like the toxic chemicals derivated from the alcohol we drink (such as ethanal, toxic and cancirogenic), it's being identified as either useless or dangerous by our body and eliminated (usually through urines and faeces), that's why you don't stay drunk only a few hours after drinking too much.
    And this is why, those
    Doctors trained to calculate dosage for all kinds of products, and especially dangerous ones, that's why there are medical specialties such as anesthesists (specialised in administering the right doses before and, hopefully not, during a surgery). All physicians are not anesthesists, but that's why vaccines are distributed in pre-caluclated shots for differenttypes of populations (low children, children, teens, adult men, adult women etc...). It is that way to ensure the safest and widest use we can (the objective being to protect a whole country). Maybe it's not enough, of maybe it should all be calculated for individual cases, but it would render the mass production impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDood64 View Post
    Quite literally, getting a vaccine is exposing yourself to an inactive pathogen or isolated part of a pathogen. Even though these pathogens/pathogenic elements might usually be inert, there's the potential for some to remain active, or for the compounds they contain to end up in places that they shouldn't.
    I agree. However you said is yourself, there's potential for unintended active pathogengs or botched pathfinding, but that's called a misshap, a fuck-up, an accident. So these happen, yes, but it's not intended. Then we go back : needing improvement, young technology etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDood64 View Post
    In fact, some vaccines are actually "live" vaccines, such as the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) vaccine, meaning that when you get this injection, you are being injected with active MMR.
    There are a few things to add. First, those vaccines like MMR still are base on the infinitesimal dose principle. Second, those need live pathogens because they would slip under the radar otherwise. Third, these live agents are injected in doses that are calculated to be very easily identified and destroyed by the immune system. The point is allowing the immune system to register this agent, and know what chemicals to produce to kill it. Then produce enough of it when greater amount of pathogens come.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDood64 View Post
    Now imagine you have a weak immune system and the virus manages to not only live, but thrive? Now you're walking around spreading the disease to other people.
    This is my main point from earlier. People with weak immune system are usually detected, registered and kept away from vaccines by the doctors. Even if not so dire, any kind of immunodeficiency forbids you to get vaccinated for your own good. At least that's how it works in my country.
    And so, the only way for these people not to catch such disease in : not being exposed to it. How you do it is you ensure that all other people around (relatives and close friends for example) get vaccinated, and monitored to ensure their immune system has destroyed it in order to create a safe space around the immunodeficient one. It's called cocooning (pretty ovious metaphore). Cocooning is not enough, so we have to rely, at a wider range, on herd immunity. The principle is : even if vaccines are not perfect, we ensure they are highy (90% minimum usually) effective to protect enough people. Then, if someone gets sick, protected people don't catch and spread it. Here is a little website to simuate it : Couverture vaccinale
    You can play with all kinds or parameters.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDood64 View Post
    Okay, thus far we've established that 1) we do not know everything about vaccines, 2) vaccines contain toxic compounds, 3) vaccines CAN be dangerous.
    We're good here.

    Now for your links :
    -I really enjoyed the pros and cons one, even though it was a bit to much on moral/phylosophical arguments for the cons.
    Never overestimate mankind.

  9. #19
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    Sorry for the unfinished post, got computer issues, i'll finish right away.
    Never overestimate mankind.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudohippie View Post
    I don't want to touch on this much considering this is already extremely volatile, but I will say this: the "study" done linking vaccines to autism has already been thoroughly debunked. So much so that the CDC redacted the study from every publication. It's wholly untrue. Not sure on most of the others, but the link between vaccines and autism is entirely untrue.
    I don't know what study you're referring to, but there have been many, and no, they have not all been thoroughly debunked. Many doctors still believe in a high correlation between exposure to Thimerosal/Aluminum and autism; google "aluminum adjuvant toxicity". Moreover, although I trust the CDC to an extent (I used them as a source of my own, after all), let's not forget the CDC said only a few years ago that Glyphosate was not a probable human carcinogen...

    There are far too many unknowns in this matter for either side to thoroughly debunk the other, and while vaccines may not cause autism, it's a pretty big coincidence that so many people have latched onto the idea -- supported further by the parallel growth of vaccine usage and autism rates.

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