• A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)
  • A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

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  1. #11
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    That suggests that keeping the child would have negative repercussions.
    Whose to say that this new life would not allow the victim some solace?
    Let's take a scenario where we don't assume that the kid is a plight on the mother.

    Is it not possible that caring for this new child will offer her a new sense of purpose and fulfillment?
    Perhaps the mother is able to overcome her grief through the unconditional love that we so often see with parents.
    By learning what it is to be a mother, and all the love that implies, can she not heal?

    Also, if a woman chooses to abort a child begotten of a rape, what about the guilt?
    She may have a whole new set of emotional trauma.

    I put the rest of this post in these handy boxes to make it seem less...forboding I guess.
    I do recommend you read them even if they aren't addressed to you specifically.

    That way you can flame me properly. :'(

    Not that y'all would do that.

    ...right?...guys?

    @Mantis:
    Sure, there are bound to be cases where the mother feels a sense of detachment from this child.
    But there are surely going to be an equal amount of times where she does not.
    The attachment of mother to child is strong thing that we as men will never fully understand.
    But it is the very presence of this possibilities, the veracity of this hope, that makes me believe such abortions as unjustified.
    Obviously we will never know how each instance will play out, but I gladly take the optimist's burden.


    @The Doctor:

    "You could argue the same thing about cancer cells, but I don't see anyone complaining about those routinely getting killed."
    Sure we can trivialize it to that, it's easy to pull the 'straw man argument' after all.
    I believe fertilization to be the start of the new being because, biologically, it is.
    The new cell is distinctly and genetically dissimilar from the mother.
    Any subsequent classifications, 'fetus', 'embryo', and what have you, are made for the conveniences of self-justification for conscience sake and belittle the reality that this is a new life.
    In the end they are merely titles.

    I stand on this conviction, the zygote is a new organism.
    From that rock, I take my stance on this issue.

    "Not necessarily."

    You beg the question my friend. How do you believe the chance of the two haven't a chance at leading full lives? Is it utterly impossible?

    "Why punish the mother? She certainly isn't to blame for her own rape. If someone has to take the fall for this, I'd rather it be the preconscious mass of cells than the living, sentient woman."
    Shouldn't the one taking the fall be the rapist?

    Anyway, if 1,000 woman, against their initial feelings, kept their children from a rape and just one them told me that she was glad she did. That she cares for her child with all her heart and takes joy in loving them.
    I would sleep well at night.


    @Flare:
    Punish the mother? Does not the abortion punish the child?
    Both are innocent.
    I am not okay with saying that it is right to punish one or the other.
    If were going to punish people, let us be fair, punish them all.
    Harsh yes, but there is another extreme.
    Give them all a chance.
    I'll take the latter.

    "If she wants to raise it"
    It is the very possibility of that which gives me all the justification I need.


    In case you feel that I am full it.
    Don't hate me for my words friends.
    I mean you all no disrespect, but don't expect me to waver on my beliefs.
    After all I don't expect to covert you to my way of thinking.
    These types of discussions are more suiting to justifying our thoughts to ourselves.
    Which is a good thing indeed.
    Know that I respect you, even if I don't agree.
    I just think it's great that we all seem to care enough about people to discuss such things.
    That's one of the first steps to truly loving others as we ought to do.
    "Believe in yourself and create your own destiny. Don't fear fate." - Narrator
    avatar by: beautifulhangoverx


    Anime-Planet.com - anime | manga | reviews


    This was a good idea Mantis.

  2. #12
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    That suggests that keeping the child would have negative repercussions.
    Whose to say that this new life would not allow the victim some solace?
    "Oh boy, it's a real shame I got raped. It's scarred me for life and I'm absolutely ****ing terrified when I go out now. But at least I now get to raise this unwanted child of the man who raped me. At least I have this psychological and financial burden for decades to come. At least I am reminded of that event every time I look at this kid. That sure makes me feel so much better. Thanks, Mr. Rapist. You've ruined my life."

    Uh-huh.


    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    Is it not possible that caring for this new child will offer her a new sense of purpose and fulfillment?
    Perhaps the mother is able to overcome her grief through the unconditional love that we so often see with parents.
    By learning what it is to be a mother, and all the love that implies, can she not heal?
    See above. You know when you keep re-opening a wound and it eventually looks worse than it did to begin with? You've got the woman's mental state right there. The 'unconditional love' would most likely be her complete and utter loss of sanity. Padded cell for the young mother pl0x.


    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    Also, if a woman chooses to abort a child begotten of a rape, what about the guilt?
    She may have a whole new set of emotional trauma.
    That's a laugh, right there. Guilt? Trauma? Over aborting the spawn of a vile rapist? "I feel so guilty about denying him the chance to be an absent father!"

    I really don't think she'll be any more traumatised than, y'know, being raped has left her. Pass me the coathanger and let's get this over with.


    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    Sure, there are bound to be cases where the mother feels a sense of detachment from this child.
    But there are surely going to be an equal amount of times where she does not.
    The attachment of mother to child is strong thing that we as men will never fully understand.
    *whistle* Kinda makes this whole debate void then, eh?


    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    But it is the very presence of this possibilities, the veracity of this hope, that makes me believe such abortions as unjustified.
    Obviously we will never know how each instance will play out, but I gladly take the optimist's burden.
    The rape was unjustified. So why should the woman live with the consequences of that?


    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    "You could argue the same thing about cancer cells, but I don't see anyone complaining about those routinely getting killed."
    Sure we can trivialize it to that, it's easy to pull the 'straw man argument' after all.
    I believe fertilization to be the start of the new being because, biologically, it is.
    In this case it's probably still about as welcome as a tumour though. Nuke it!


    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    The new cell is distinctly and genetically dissimilar from the mother.
    Any subsequent classifications, 'fetus', 'embryo', and what have you, are made for the conveniences of self-justification for conscience sake and belittle the reality that this is a new life.
    In the end they are merely titles.
    Oh dear. Looks like all the physical developments between these various stages is all just a miserable little pile of secrets, then. FORGET YOU, BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE.


    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    "Why punish the mother? She certainly isn't to blame for her own rape. If someone has to take the fall for this, I'd rather it be the preconscious mass of cells than the living, sentient woman."
    Shouldn't the one taking the fall be the rapist?
    Obviously, but they tend not to stick around and wait for justice to catch up with them. And at any rate, he doesn't deserve to have his genetic material passed on anyway. Definitely not like this.


    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    Punish the mother? Does not the abortion punish the child?
    Both are innocent.
    I am not okay with saying that it is right to punish one or the other.
    If were going to punish people, let us be fair, punish them all.
    Punish them all? Now you're just peddling extremist nonsense! D:
    "It turned out that the ghost was just Mr. Finley, who ran the amusement park. The spooky part is that, as soon as the ghost appeared, the teenagers' dog began to speak! And it spoke in a tortured parody of human speech: 'relp me, Raggy,' it would say. 'I am an abomination and rould re rilled. Rill re, Raggy.'"

  3. #13
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Well, you're in Blue Heaven. *grabs Hilda's taser* Every man for himself! So long as there are no personal insults a debate is going to get pretty intense sometimes. If you can't stand the heat, stick to Clyde's. (And hope you don't get shot up by Death Rob instead.)

    Baron's expressed some of his argument in a harsh way. But that's Baron. You've gotta expect that. Nevertheless I agree with him. I don't know why you hold such views, Asher, but each to their own. So are you honestly telling me that if you had a girlfriend and you were at university (not quite sure what you're doing now), you'd put your whole education on hold and a potential future career to return home and do 9-5 work so you could support your girlfriend and the baby that is a result of her being raped about a year ago? A completely traumatising experience for her, but you'd be glad to raise the rapist's baby? Really?

    Sorry, but I don't think so.

  4. #14
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Absolutely I would Mantis, I do not blame the child for the acts of the rapist.
    People matter more than my own personal plans.
    Will it be tough, absolutely, but not impossible.

    Which is the whole point of my beliefs.
    Possibility.
    If there exists the possibility for some small measure of good coming from this child's life,
    then I can go home justified.
    Let the Baron take his pot shots.
    "Believe in yourself and create your own destiny. Don't fear fate." - Narrator
    avatar by: beautifulhangoverx


    Anime-Planet.com - anime | manga | reviews


    This was a good idea Mantis.

  5. #15
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Then why aren't you in third-world countries helping people if you care so much about others? It's cool to write on internet forums about such issues, but if you care about life so much you could surely join a not-for-profit organisation and help those less fortunate in other countries, no? (Serious post.)

  6. #16
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    If there exists the possibility for some small measure of good coming from this child's life,
    then I can go home justified.
    So that's the goal, regardless of detriment? That's all fine, is it? Provided some small positive comes out of it, all the **** it most likely will cause doesn't matter.

    Right.
    "It turned out that the ghost was just Mr. Finley, who ran the amusement park. The spooky part is that, as soon as the ghost appeared, the teenagers' dog began to speak! And it spoke in a tortured parody of human speech: 'relp me, Raggy,' it would say. 'I am an abomination and rould re rilled. Rill re, Raggy.'"

  7. #17
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Sure, but I am selfish.
    I'd give up my current plans to help those in my close circle.
    But as for the third world county...well my saint powers haven't matured yet.
    (Not so serious post)

    I can live with that Baron.
    We all have been.
    Has anyone meet the perfect system in which there exists only pros and not a single con?
    If you're saying that you live in such a world, fantastic!
    You're very lucky my friend.
    "Believe in yourself and create your own destiny. Don't fear fate." - Narrator
    avatar by: beautifulhangoverx


    Anime-Planet.com - anime | manga | reviews


    This was a good idea Mantis.

  8. #18
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    Has anyone meet the perfect system in which there exists only pros and not a single con?
    If you're saying that you live in such a world, fantastic!
    You're very lucky my friend.


    "I think you misunderstand me, Asher. The zygotes you mention mean nothing."


    You've got it completely wrong. I'm not saying I live in a world of pros without cons. I never even implied it. What I'm saying is your perspective is screwed up. How can you warrant numerous negatives just for this one minor positive? Are you not aware that this leaves things at a grossly negative 'score'?

    The mother will be scarred for life. The child will never know his* father... but that's okay; after all, he* can put square shapes in square holes without a problem!


    (*Get off my case, feminists.)
    "It turned out that the ghost was just Mr. Finley, who ran the amusement park. The spooky part is that, as soon as the ghost appeared, the teenagers' dog began to speak! And it spoke in a tortured parody of human speech: 'relp me, Raggy,' it would say. 'I am an abomination and rould re rilled. Rill re, Raggy.'"

  9. #19
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    In my eyes, that one positive will foster greater repercussions as time moves on that off sets the negative.
    From loving parent to healthy child, and their children, and their children.
    Yes, I am aware of the negative score.
    But it takes only one Gandhi to change the world.
    It's my hope we don't abort the next great humanitarian,
    since we haven't any notion from what circumstances that person will come.

    I see now sir!
    By the merit of your firearm you must be correct!
    Please don't bust-a-cap in my *****-***.
    Seriously though, great pic.

    That's one possible scenario sure.
    And lol, nice way to take out two birds with one stone.
    Gotta keep the feminists happy.
    "Believe in yourself and create your own destiny. Don't fear fate." - Narrator
    avatar by: beautifulhangoverx


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    This was a good idea Mantis.

  10. #20
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    lol internet wars.

    A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)-nwhmrd-jpg

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