• A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)
  • A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

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  1. #21
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis
    lol internet wars.

    A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)-nwhmrd-jpg
    Internets +3
    "It turned out that the ghost was just Mr. Finley, who ran the amusement park. The spooky part is that, as soon as the ghost appeared, the teenagers' dog began to speak! And it spoke in a tortured parody of human speech: 'relp me, Raggy,' it would say. 'I am an abomination and rould re rilled. Rill re, Raggy.'"

  2. #22
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    I'm doing my damndest to limit the discussion strictly to the points involved, but Mantis, that picture is ****ing awesome. Back to the debate at hand...

    Sure we can trivialize it to that, it's easy to pull the 'straw man argument' after all.
    I believe fertilization to be the start of the new being because, biologically, it is.
    The new cell is distinctly and genetically dissimilar from the mother.
    Any subsequent classifications, 'fetus', 'embryo', and what have you, are made for the conveniences of self-justification for conscience sake and belittle the reality that this is a new life.
    In the end they are merely titles.
    Oh, there's a lot to cover here...

    I was not pulling a straw man argument. I was saying that because virtually all of the arguments that can be applied to a zygote or blastocyst can be applied to a tumor, it's not a very good qualification for something deserving full human rights.

    Furthermore, the fetal development stages were developed by biologists. Biologists who were studying a process and needed a way to categorize and systematize what they were seeing. Because, you know, that's what biologists do. If you want to continue down this line of argument, you're going to have to tell me that biologists developed this system not because they saw significant milestones in a process and used them to separate various stages of it, but because they were all pro-choice and developed this system specifically to justify that. In which case, [citation needed].

    You beg the question my friend. How do you believe the chance of the two haven't a chance at leading full lives? Is it utterly impossible?
    Given that our hypothetical mother could be among the absolute worst cases, I would say so. At any rate, I'd say there are certainly many cases where having the kid is too much of a risk to the mother's physical and mental wellbeing.

    Shouldn't the one taking the fall be the rapist?
    Even if he's arrested, convicted, and brought to justice, that won't undo his actions.

    Anyway, if 1,000 woman, against their initial feelings, kept their children from a rape and just one them told me that she was glad she did. That she cares for her child with all her heart and takes joy in loving them.
    I would sleep well at night.
    So you'd force a solution on them even if it left (literally) 99.9% of those involved worse off than they would've been if they'd been allowed to take the alternative? You're going to have to justify this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixie-the-Pixie
    I mainly do crack.

  3. #23
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    I can't get in on this awesome pic?
    Bummer.

    "I was not pulling a straw man argument. I was saying that because virtually all of the arguments that can be applied to a zygote or blastocyst can be applied to a tumor, it's not a very good qualification for something deserving full human rights."
    I do still see it as a misrepresentation of my position, thus the straw man.
    A zygote does not equate a tumor in the literal sense.
    You can make comparisons sure, but they are fundamentally different.
    One is a fouled up cellular mutation.
    The other eventually becomes a human being.
    By this merit, it deserves human rights.

    "Furthermore, the fetal development stages were developed by biologists. Biologists who were studying a process and needed a way to categorize and systematize what they were seeing. Because, you know, that's what biologists do. If you want to continue down this line of argument, you're going to have to tell me that biologists developed this system not because they saw significant milestones in a process and used them to separate various stages of it, but because they were all pro-choice and developed this system specifically to justify that. In which case, [citation needed]."
    I admit, my generalization unfairly lopped the scientists in with the pro-choice advocates.
    My only point on this matter is that the zygote is a living cell.
    The subsequent classifications are irrelevant.
    For those who share my belief, the presence of life is enough.

    "Given that our hypothetical mother could be among the absolute worst cases, I would say so. At any rate, I'd say there are certainly many cases where having the kid is too much of a risk to the mother's physical and mental wellbeing."
    The point I am trying to make is the "could" idea.
    It could be horrible yes, but not for certain anyway.
    Denying any cases with positive possibility is very pessimistic indeed.

    "Even if he's arrested, convicted, and brought to justice, that won't undo his actions."
    Very true, if only it could.
    But at least the woman has justice.

    "So you'd force a solution on them even if it left (literally) 99.9% of those involved worse off than they would've been if they'd been allowed to take the alternative? You're going to have to justify this. "
    The .1% is all the justification I require for my own conscience.
    That's also assuming that I could pass such a law.
    I doubt it, nor would I pursue it.
    This is purely an ideological debate.
    If I'm asked to vote on the issue, then sure I would stick to my principles.
    But fear not, it would never pass the legislature, much less the courts.
    "Believe in yourself and create your own destiny. Don't fear fate." - Narrator
    avatar by: beautifulhangoverx


    Anime-Planet.com - anime | manga | reviews


    This was a good idea Mantis.

  4. #24
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AsherTheWilliams
    The .1% is all the justification I require for my own conscience.
    ...you're out of your ****ing mind.
    "It turned out that the ghost was just Mr. Finley, who ran the amusement park. The spooky part is that, as soon as the ghost appeared, the teenagers' dog began to speak! And it spoke in a tortured parody of human speech: 'relp me, Raggy,' it would say. 'I am an abomination and rould re rilled. Rill re, Raggy.'"

  5. #25
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    I do still see it as a misrepresentation of my position, thus the straw man.
    A zygote does not equate a tumor in the literal sense.
    You can make comparisons sure, but they are fundamentally different.
    One is a fouled up cellular mutation.
    The other eventually becomes a human being.
    By this merit, it deserves human rights.
    My only point on this matter is that the zygote is a living cell.
    So are bacteria, but using hand sanitizer doesn't make you guilty of genocide.

    The point I am trying to make is the "could" idea.
    It could be horrible yes, but not for certain anyway.
    Denying any cases with positive possibility is very pessimistic indeed.
    While there's no guarantee having the baby would make things worse for the mother, it's extremely unlikely they would help her. Nobody got anywhere by risking everything for fantastically unlikely rewards.

    The .1% is all the justification I require for my own conscience.
    And how do you justify prioritizing the 2 over the 999? What good is a philosophical stance if it leads to such a numerically unfavorable outcome?

    To reiterate: Nobody got anywhere by risking everything for fantastically unlikely rewards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixie-the-Pixie
    I mainly do crack.

  6. #26
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    @The Good Doctor:
    "So are bacteria, but using hand sanitizer doesn't make you guilty of genocide."
    Tis genocide indeed my friend, it's just no one cares for bacteria enough.
    ...well I'm sure someone does.
    Some strange person out there, beyond the stars...

    "there's no guarantee having the baby would make things worse for the mother"
    That's pretty much my entire point right there.

    "And how do you justify prioritizing the 2 over the 999? What good is a philosophical stance if it leads to such a numerically unfavorable outcome?"
    It's not good philosophy.
    It's over zealous faith in humanity.
    It's love for those two exceeding all logic.

    "Nobody got anywhere by risking everything for fantastically unlikely rewards."

    Rosa Parks did.
    Just about anyone in the US Jim Crow South who stood up for civil rights did.

    Saigo Takamori did.
    He stood up and challenged a rapidly industrializing nation, knowing full well just how futile it was.
    Now he is a revered symbol of Japanese national identity.

    The Greeks at Thermopylae.
    They became legends.

    Ester of Persia.
    It's documented, she was married to Xerxes.
    She stopped a mass genocide of people that the Persians were all ready to execute.

    Eli Wiesel, survived against all odds and has influenced millions.

    Oskar Schindler along Holocaust lines.

    There are others.

    @Baron:
    "...you're out of your ****ing mind."
    Dang straight.
    But my mind is my own.
    Don't worry it's not contagious.
    "Believe in yourself and create your own destiny. Don't fear fate." - Narrator
    avatar by: beautifulhangoverx


    Anime-Planet.com - anime | manga | reviews


    This was a good idea Mantis.

  7. #27
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Wow... I think I could justifiably quote Faust in saying "Wretch, what hast thou wrought?" I think my idea for an argument has worked too well.

    Ok, that said: I have to agree with Doc. Sorry Asher, but I'm against you all the way on this one.
    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." - Quellcrist Falconer

  8. #28
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    It's alright my friend.
    I'll be fine.
    "Always stand on principle....even if you stand alone."
    John Adams
    "Believe in yourself and create your own destiny. Don't fear fate." - Narrator
    avatar by: beautifulhangoverx


    Anime-Planet.com - anime | manga | reviews


    This was a good idea Mantis.

  9. #29
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Forget John Adams, I'll take a Samuel Adams anyday.
    "It turned out that the ghost was just Mr. Finley, who ran the amusement park. The spooky part is that, as soon as the ghost appeared, the teenagers' dog began to speak! And it spoke in a tortured parody of human speech: 'relp me, Raggy,' it would say. 'I am an abomination and rould re rilled. Rill re, Raggy.'"

  10. #30
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    RE: A ripping good argument (ABORTION!)

    Amen! Shiner Boch is better!
    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." - Quellcrist Falconer

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