• Has Nintendo really needed third-party support?
  • Has Nintendo really needed third-party support?

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  1. #1
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    Has Nintendo really needed third-party support?

    Read this (and scroll down a little) first.

    I didn't want the other thread to completely derail so I decided to make this one instead. Hari's made some very good points. It's not that I think Nintendo's success on the whole is truly slipping. It's that I think they can do so much better with third-party support. The GameCube pissed off developers because of its mini-DVD capacity. With the Wii it was more to do with the limited hardware. It's not just about seeking third-party support, but making the changes to make a platform seem attractive for such game ports. As for why I really think it's necessary, I could go on and write paragraphs but Rich from ReviewTechUSA has summed it up far better than I could. I'm pretty sure this is the video...

    Gene: "Have faith in me guys, enjoy the ride—you're in good hands. I can handle this. I can do it!"
    Jim: "How do you know?"
    Gene: "I don't!"
    Jim: "I knew it."
    Gene: "That's okay. There's a first time for everything!"

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  2. #2
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    It was a good call to take this to a new thread. Now to watch the video...

    He's not wrong. Nintendo's hardware will never be able to compete against what the PlayStation and Xbox are doing if they keep up their stubborn business practices that they've had going since the N64. But again, I'm not convinced that's what they have been trying to do. I see Nintendo as a niche market-- people who want to play Nintendo games will buy the Nintendo hardware, it's as simple as that. I can't say I've ever agreed with the notion of 'competition' that exists in these kind of spaces, you know, like the whole PC vs Mac vs Linux thing. It's a very black and white mentality in which you choose a camp and stick with it, opposed to making the most of what each option has to offer. I understand this isn't as simple as apples and oranges-- these are very expensive pieces of hardware we're talking about, and people of course want to get the most for money. From that perspective, I can understand why you would want one central platform for all of your gaming, that seems to me to be the perspective that many PC gamers take.

    I'm going to make another argument and say that Nintendo's Wii U has been the only 'true' console experience this past generation. I know I know, but hear me out here. I don't think anyone would argue that the PS4 and Xbox One are essentially lite PC's, right? The list of exclusives has been getting smaller by the generation, at this point there is very little reason to own an Xbox One outside of some semblance of brand loyalty. The PS4 has been getting better in recent times, however... there is no reason that Nioh, Bloodborne, Horizon: Zero Dawn and whatever else need to be exclusive to the PS4-- these games could just as well be played on PC, and the experience of playing them is more or less the same as playing any other big-budget title on the PC, controller in hand. These games are exclusive to the PS4 for no reason other than to sell more units.

    There is a reason that Metal Gear Solid was exclusive to the PS1, because it made use of the system's hardware in such a way that would be incredly difficult to port to another platform without compromise. Of course I'm talking about Psycho Mantis reading your memory card, but similar to what the man in that video said, it would have been impossible to fit MGS on a cartridge, especially with how much spoken dialogue there is in the game. This applies to many other games as well, Final Fantasy being an obvious choice. But let's look at the reverse, shall we? I'm no expert, but I imagine you'd have a hard time getting Ocarina of Time and Banjo-Kazooie to run on a PS1, exclusivity aside. I'm not a fan of the N64's controller (or even the system in general), but trying to play GoldenEye with a PS1 controller wouldn't feel right at all. Also, remember how much of your childhood was spent staring at loading screens? Not an issue with the N64. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that both the PS1 and N64 offered unique expriences from each other than neither could replicate for the most part, even seperate from the PC at the time. The generation afterwards was more or less an extension of this, though in my mind Sony's rising popularity with the PlayStation made gaming in general a more socially acceptable passtime than back in the days of Sega and Nintendo, which I think has a lot to do with the state of the current market, and why Nintendo have been finding it difficult to find their place within it. Many people like to talk about what a huge success the PS2 was, ignoring the fact that the best selling games were often sports and racing games. Most of the kids I knew didn't have MGS2 or Final Fantasy X, they had shit like Medal of Honor and Fifa 2004. It was a great system, but the reasons for it's success had little to do with the quality of it's library and more the fact that it was an affordable DVD player, and I know many people bought the PS3 for similar reasons.

    Now, let's think about the Wii U in comparison to the PS4 and Xbox One. Although underpowered, the GamePad (while sorely underutilized) offered an experience which was unlike what the PS4 and Xbox One were doing. Was it gimmicky? Yes, but so are DDR Dance Pads and VR headsets, that is besides the point. Sailing around in Wind Waker HD while picking up Tingle Bottles scattered along the world, which allow you to read Miiverse messages from other players was a really cool feature, and honestly one of my favourite moments from this past generation. These messages could be a number of things-- drawings, hints, or cries for help. I can think of at least one instance where I was stuck on a puzzle, sent out a Tingle Bottle asking for help, and within 30 minutes recieved several replies informing me how to proceed. This was a great experience which really brought me into the world of the game so much more. Yes, you could just look up GameFAQs or something, but the Tingle Bottle system felt like a return to the old days, where all you had to rely on was the word of the other kids at school. It felt more personal, it's the kind of thing you'd have to experience for yourself. I wish more Wii U games had made use of the GamePad in the same way, and the failure for developers to do so is what let the Wii U down if you ask me, 'sales' and 'mainstream appeal' and all of that aside.

    I feel like I've drifted from the purpose of this thread a little bit. I just think a world where all consoles are technically identitcal is a boring one indeed, a pointless one. Why even bother having seperate consoles at that point? You may as well do your gaming on PC, if it wasn't for the few exclusives the PS4 has going for it I probably would be. What I want out of my consoles are a unique experience that I can't get anywhere else, and though their success is varying, Nintendo have done a good job of giving me that so far, and I'm hopeful the Switch will as well. Anything else, I'll play on my PS4, though I may as well note I am currently saving up for a gaming PC primarily for multiplayer gaming as I'm sick of subscription-based online and, let's face it, Steam is a far better service than PSN or Xbox Live could ever hope to be.

  3. #3
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    Time to take the gloves off for a true outlaw brawl, essay-style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    He's not wrong. Nintendo's hardware will never be able to compete against what the PlayStation and Xbox are doing if they keep up their stubborn business practices that they've had going since the N64. But again, I'm not convinced that's what they have been trying to do. I see Nintendo as a niche market-- people who want to play Nintendo games will buy the Nintendo hardware, it's as simple as that.
    I won't fault anybody for thinking that, but that isn't simply it. The shareholders don't care about the loyal Nintendo fans. That's business, and businesses usually want to stick to tried and tested approaches that make money. As Rich explains in the video, in one way or another all consoles are competitors. This is why Nintendo thought it was a good idea to name the Wii U after its predecessor. Obviously that backfired, but they made that decision—perhaps wrongly with a Japanese perspective—because they thought it would shift consoles. And why? "Wii" is a very well-known brand name, and now onto that.

    The Nintendo Wii is the best-selling Nintendo home console of all time. It's not because they were trying to sell a product to their existing fans. They introduced their supposed revolutionary gimmick to attract a new audience, and that's why the Nintendo Wii sold so well. You can't tell me you haven't been surprised to hear that an older person or somebody you'd have never thought could be a gamer has a Wii before. Nintendo knew their target audience. They advertised it in a "dumb" fashion with its easy-to-play games for those who have never gamed before. They didn't make it for the fans. It just so happened that they produced some very good games for the fans in the process but that wasn't Nintendo's main goal. Same with the Switch. It probably looks awesome to tablet users, and tablets have been all the rage for the past few years. It's a smart move provided they work harder with third-parties, and fortunately Reggie did say they will. Let's hope they keep that promise in spite of the hardware barrier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    I can't say I've ever agreed with the notion of 'competition' that exists in these kind of spaces, you know, like the whole PC vs Mac vs Linux thing. It's a very black and white mentality in which you choose a camp and stick with it, opposed to making the most of what each option has to offer. I understand this isn't as simple as apples and oranges-- these are very expensive pieces of hardware we're talking about, and people of course want to get the most for money. From that perspective, I can understand why you would want one central platform for all of your gaming, that seems to me to be the perspective that many PC gamers take.
    I'm not a big fan of needless console wars either. While I do enjoy pointing out the facts, sometimes people take their (and others') opinions a bit too far. I'd usually only poke fun at someone who bashes PC gaming with no logic to back it up. I do love my handhelds though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    I'm going to make another argument and say that Nintendo's Wii U has been the only 'true' console experience this past generation. I know I know, but hear me out here. I don't think anyone would argue that the PS4 and Xbox One are essentially lite PC's, right? The list of exclusives has been getting smaller by the generation, at this point there is very little reason to own an Xbox One outside of some semblance of brand loyalty. The PS4 has been getting better in recent times, however... there is no reason that Nioh, Bloodborne, Horizon: Zero Dawn and whatever else need to be exclusive to the PS4-- these games could just as well be played on PC, and the experience of playing them is more or less the same as playing any other big-budget title on the PC, controller in hand. These games are exclusive to the PS4 for no reason other than to sell more units.
    Sorry, but I've gotta disagree here. You've made a decent point about more third-party titles ending up on the PC, but there aren't any first-party PC titles (except Minesweeper or Solitaire) and this is just the natural development of a platform. The PC simply wasn't as popular (by a long shot) 1-2 decades ago but now the tables have turned, and naturally companies want to bring their titles to a popular platform that delivers. Most consoles are essentially PCs. Well, okay, that's an overstatement, but hold your horses. The original Xbox obviously ran x86-based hardware which gained it the horrible "PC in a box" name, and we're talking over fifteen years ago. The GameCube ran on Apple hardware. I think it was the Gecko processor? It was a modification of Apple's PowerPC hardware. Forget about Sony. The PS2's hardware is much more mysterious and it takes far more horsepower for a PC to run its games via emulation. Anyway, my point is that since the Wii ran GameCube hardware it's a similar story and the Xbox 360's hardware was still PC-like. (Again, I never really looked into the PS3's hardware.)

    People (especially Nintendo fans) are using Steam's (or PC's if you prefer) recent colossal rise in game availability as an excuse to fuel their console war agenda because when you look at the facts the hardware situation has changed, but not that much. They buy consoles for ease and comfort, and that's perfectly fine. For some reason PC is still regarded by many console gamers as a platform you can only enjoy hunched at a desk and something you have to spend a lot of money on, but the reality is very different. I regularly play PC games on my recliner with a projector in another room because I split the HDMI signal. You just need a little know-how, and again, that's why a lot of people prefer consoles. I'm not saying it makes them idiots as like you said consoles do have their decent exclusives too. The PC stereotypes are still the same as they were last generation but less so, and companies have realised how advantageous the platform is.

    Without meaning to repeat myself this is why people (like I said, mostly Nintendo fans) think of the PS4 and XB1 as PCs. They're just gobbling down the first things they hear and not digging deeper for the facts. The PC is experiencing a natural progression in its popularity. The fact it has more games doesn't change the hardware of consoles. It also doesn't change the fact that the majority of console gamers don't want to leave a comfort zone. Go to the store, buy—job done. No tinkering. Sit down on the sofa, grab your controller. It's easy. So, the fact companies are bringing more titles to the PC and making PS4/XB1's libraries similar to PC (let's not forget their exclusives though) is not a supporting argument. If anything it's defeatist. People want third-party games. It's why the Wii U crashed like the Hindenburg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    There is a reason that Metal Gear Solid was exclusive to the PS1, because it made use of the system's hardware in such a way that would be incredly difficult to port to another platform without compromise. Of course I'm talking about Psycho Mantis reading your memory card, but similar to what the man in that video said, it would have been impossible to fit MGS on a cartridge, especially with how much spoken dialogue there is in the game. This applies to many other games as well, Final Fantasy being an obvious choice. But let's look at the reverse, shall we? I'm no expert, but I imagine you'd have a hard time getting Ocarina of Time and Banjo-Kazooie to run on a PS1, exclusivity aside.
    You have a point, but that was then and this is now. Nintendo retained their edge on the hardware front up until the GameCube's generation. Then they plummeted, and hard. You're also pointing out major flaws in Nintendo's recent consoles. Remember, although Nintendo owned Rareware at the time, Banjo-Kazooie was still a third-party title. It's similar to how Sony bought so many of Squaresoft's shares which sealed the exclusivity deal. Point being, they were "bought" because they were great third-party developers. Nowadays, third-party developers are still making great titles all the time. These bring people to non-Nintendo platforms, and as a business it hurts Nintendo. The Wii U was such a flop because it lacked the hardware and the willingness from Nintendo (not to mention awful marketing) to earn a place at the third-party table. It wasn't long ago when people speculated whether Nintendo would consider leaving hardware development in the near future. Obviously that hasn't happened though they did make a business choice to merge home and handheld. I think they've marketed the Switch well, but I am concerned about whether their hardware inferiority will yet again harm their future prospects. The PS1 and the N64 both had something the other didn't. The PS1 had game capacity which of course made a big difference and the N64 had graphics. I hope innovation is enough for Nintendo's sake this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    I'm not a fan of the N64's controller (or even the system in general), but trying to play GoldenEye with a PS1 controller wouldn't feel right at all.
    DualShock? Obviously not everyone would have been able to take advantage of that, but they could have sold a bundle. Just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    The generation afterwards was more or less an extension of this, though in my mind Sony's rising popularity with the PlayStation made gaming in general a more socially acceptable passtime than back in the days of Sega and Nintendo, which I think has a lot to do with the state of the current market, and why Nintendo have been finding it difficult to find their place within it. Many people like to talk about what a huge success the PS2 was, ignoring the fact that the best selling games were often sports and racing games. Most of the kids I knew didn't have MGS2 or Final Fantasy X, they had shit like Medal of Honor and Fifa 2004. It was a great system, but the reasons for it's success had little to do with the quality of it's library and more the fact that it was an affordable DVD player, and I know many people bought the PS3 for similar reasons.
    You're forgetting that the GameCube also had these third-party titles. I've known a couple of GameCube owners with stacks of football games. Nintendo makes great games, though on that topic I must say I'm not happy with the current situation as I voiced in another thread. Like Sega they're not making any new franchises lately. (Every time I say this I get a "Splatoon!" reply. Oh please. ) But yes, back on the GameCube they made many enjoyable games. The GameCube had great exclusives, but so did the PS2 and the Xbox, regardless of what the biggest sellers were. I think that was one of the most "neck-and-neck" of all generations, so it's difficult to compare, really. I don't think many people bought the PS3 as a DVD player. I can't see many non-gamers even thinking of that. Wasn't the Wii more affordable with a DVD drive too? Oh, I remember, you can only watch DVDs if you mod it. C'mon Nintendo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    Now, let's think about the Wii U in comparison to the PS4 and Xbox One. Although underpowered, the GamePad (while sorely underutilized) offered an experience which was unlike what the PS4 and Xbox One were doing. Was it gimmicky? Yes, but so are DDR Dance Pads and VR headsets, that is besides the point. Sailing around in Wind Waker HD while picking up Tingle Bottles scattered along the world, which allow you to read Miiverse messages from other players was a really cool feature, and honestly one of my favourite moments from this past generation. These messages could be a number of things-- drawings, hints, or cries for help. I can think of at least one instance where I was stuck on a puzzle, sent out a Tingle Bottle asking for help, and within 30 minutes recieved several replies informing me how to proceed. This was a great experience which really brought me into the world of the game so much more. Yes, you could just look up GameFAQs or something, but the Tingle Bottle system felt like a return to the old days, where all you had to rely on was the word of the other kids at school. It felt more personal, it's the kind of thing you'd have to experience for yourself. I wish more Wii U games had made use of the GamePad in the same way, and the failure for developers to do so is what let the Wii U down if you ask me, 'sales' and 'mainstream appeal' and all of that aside.

    I feel like I've drifted from the purpose of this thread a little bit. I just think a world where all consoles are technically identitcal is a boring one indeed, a pointless one. Why even bother having seperate consoles at that point? You may as well do your gaming on PC, if it wasn't for the few exclusives the PS4 has going for it I probably would be. What I want out of my consoles are a unique experience that I can't get anywhere else, and though their success is varying, Nintendo have done a good job of giving me that so far, and I'm hopeful the Switch will as well. Anything else, I'll play on my PS4, though I may as well note I am currently saving up for a gaming PC primarily for multiplayer gaming as I'm sick of subscription-based online and, let's face it, Steam is a far better service than PSN or Xbox Live could ever hope to be.
    I won't deny that despite not having played a Wii U yet the gamepad does look fun. It's something new and different. Having said that, you have to realise that the game industry is a harsh battlefield—nobody is playing nice. You've gotta throw your personal preferences out of the window sometimes and consider what Nintendo needs to survive. I know you're not a fan of the mainstream or the crapware that often gets washed in with the worthwhile third-party titles, but a game library is a bucket. There's gotta be something at the bottom, but as they say, one man's trash is another man's treasure. People like bad third-party games, just like how they did on the Nintendo Wii. The amount of shovelware on that console is astounding. But it sold. And so do third-party titles, good and bad. Nintendo need them if they want to survive and that's why they're trying to (hopefully) change how they play the game so the Switch isn't the last we'll see from them in hardware.
    Gene: "Have faith in me guys, enjoy the ride—you're in good hands. I can handle this. I can do it!"
    Jim: "How do you know?"
    Gene: "I don't!"
    Jim: "I knew it."
    Gene: "That's okay. There's a first time for everything!"

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  4. #4
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    Not sure if this was clear in my original post, but I wasn't comparing the PS4 and Xbox One to PC in a favorable sense, more that they essentially offer a gimped PC experience. We've reached a point where consoles don't even read games off the disc anymore, it all works by installing to the hard drive. Console gamers have often used this as ammunition against PC gamers. 'You have to install your games before you can play them, haw-haw!', now the tables have turned and I think they will continue to do so. The PS4 Pro (and upcoming Scorpio) is a lazy man's upgrade over the standard model, not unlike how you might buy a new GPU for your PC, though a LOT more expensive. Also, as I mentioned earlier, PSN and Xbox Live which are essentially a poor man's version of Steam. I won't claim that consoles are similar to PC's at a technological level, but the basic experience has boiled down to 'it's like a PC, but with less freedom of choice'. I don't think I'm wrong in thinking this, but maybe I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis
    DualShock? Obviously not everyone would have been able to take advantage of that, but they could have sold a bundle. Just saying.
    I was referring to the Z-trigger, I might be wrong but I feel like GoldenEye would have been a lot less successful it it hadn't been for the N64 controller. I've seen people buy N64 USB adapters just so they can use it with GoldenEye: Source, maybe it's a nostalgia thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis
    You're forgetting that the GameCube also had these third-party titles. I've known a couple of GameCube owners with stacks of football games.
    It's true that the GameCube shared the shovelware from the PS2, but no one was going on about what a gift from God the GameCube was, were they? Well, maybe the odd fanboy, but as far as I can tell even the most hardcore Nintendo fans don't like the GameCube. Sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis
    I don't think many people bought the PS3 as a DVD player.
    I was talking about the Blu-ray player! I know a handful of people who bought one just for that, and didn't even bother buying games for the thing. Wait... what games? Bad joke.

    Those nitpicks aside, your argument is sound. Fucking hell Mantis, when you get serious you really don't back down. Consider this a surrender.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    Not sure if this was clear in my original post, but I wasn't comparing the PS4 and Xbox One to PC in a favorable sense, more that they essentially offer a gimped PC experience. We've reached a point where consoles don't even read games off the disc anymore, it all works by installing to the hard drive. Console gamers have often used this as ammunition against PC gamers. 'You have to install your games before you can play them, haw-haw!', now the tables have turned and I think they will continue to do so. The PS4 Pro (and upcoming Scorpio) is a lazy man's upgrade over the standard model, not unlike how you might buy a new GPU for your PC, though a LOT more expensive. Also, as I mentioned earlier, PSN and Xbox Live which are essentially a poor man's version of Steam. I won't claim that consoles are similar to PC's at a technological level, but the basic experience has boiled down to 'it's like a PC, but with less freedom of choice'. I don't think I'm wrong in thinking this, but maybe I am.
    That certainly makes sense, though for the most part I was clarifying the differences for the sake of showing that Nintendo needs third-party. However, I do agree that the console experience isn't quite the same, but that's not to say Nintendo isn't succumbing to DLC. We were even seeing digital game purchases back on the Wii and it's a big thing on the 3DS too. (Most likely even more so on the Wii U, and...) I must bring up Breath of the Wild. I could be wrong but didn't Nintendo recently announce lots of news about DLC in the game? I suppose Nintendo does offer a more classic console experience but I think those days are numbered. I don't like the sound of the Scorpio either or the PS4 Pro, but they weren't the first. New Nintendo 3DS, anyone? Maybe one day it'll end up like the 3DO. Basically, it worked by licensing the hardware specifications so different companies could build their own 3DO, with my favourite being the Panasonic 3DO. The biggest difference was the console's build and controllers. Sounds kinda grim though. Panasonic PlayStation 5?

    Yeah, I think eventually PC will really be king in one way or another. Thing is, Nintendo needs Microsoft and Sony. They all support the console platforms collectively. If Microsoft and Sony leave the game and Nintendo keeps producing underpowered hardware a lot more AAA titles will be on PC and it will become a more attractive platform than Nintendo's consoles. Also, multiple consoles creates controversy. People love drama. Console wars fuel the hype and ironically it probably helps console sales if anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    I was referring to the Z-trigger, I might be wrong but I feel like GoldenEye would have been a lot less successful it it hadn't been for the N64 controller. I've seen people buy N64 USB adapters just so they can use it with GoldenEye: Source, maybe it's a nostalgia thing.
    Oh, I do love that Z-trigger. Thank god the game had some form of auto-aim though as it's a pain in the ass to aim with that blasted controller! I played GoldenEye to death as a kid as well as Perfect Dark. Rare were developing a HD version of GoldenEye but they had to cancel it due to licensing restrictions, sadly. At least the modding community for the N64 original has expanded and they've made some pretty amazing stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    It's true that the GameCube shared the shovelware from the PS2, but no one was going on about what a gift from God the GameCube was, were they? Well, maybe the odd fanboy, but as far as I can tell even the most hardcore Nintendo fans don't like the GameCube. Sad.
    Really? What's not to like? It's one of my favourite Nintendo consoles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    I was talking about the Blu-ray player! I know a handful of people who bought one just for that, and didn't even bother buying games for the thing. Wait... what games? Bad joke.
    Jesus, that was very careless of me. Even so, I don't know many people who got a PS3 with the intent of just watching Blu-rays. Yes, it makes perfect sense, but a lot of people who haven't gamed in their lives would just pop over to Curry's for a Blu-ray player. To a good extent you're likely correct. I just haven't witnessed this myself, especially since many Blu-ray players decreased in price alongside the PS3 and that the PS3 is very bulky.

    Has Nintendo really needed third-party support?-spider-playstation-3-logo-font-jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Hari View Post
    Those nitpicks aside, your argument is sound. Fucking hell Mantis, when you get serious you really don't back down. Consider this a surrender.

    I'm always up for a fine debate, so I'm willing to hear your rebuttals anytime! If you wish though, your surrender is accepted. Now please hand over all of your property.

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    Jim: "How do you know?"
    Gene: "I don't!"
    Jim: "I knew it."
    Gene: "That's okay. There's a first time for everything!"

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